Author Jill Schulman on Marine Corps Lessons, Positive Psychology, and Why Bravery, Not Comfort, Drives Fulfillment
What I realized was, great leadership isn’t always what people expect — even in the Marine Corps. My best leader wasn’t the one barking orders. He was calm, a great listener, empathetic. He absolutely held us to high standards, but he cared deeply. That taught me: leadership is not about being the loudest voice — it’s about listening well, caring genuinely, and believing in your people. I try to be that kind of leader now, and I remind others that humility and empathy are not soft skills — they’re power skills.
I had the pleasure of talking with Jill Schulman. Jill is a leadership consultant, former U.S. Marine Corps officer, and founder of Breakthrough Leadership Group, LLC, an organizational development firm that focuses on leadership development and cultivating courage and resilience in professional environments. Her work, grounded in both personal experience and academic research, explores how individuals and organizations can confront fear, embrace discomfort, and foster growth to drive results and promote resilience.
Raised in Prior Lake, Minnesota, Schulman grew up observing the contrast between hard work and emotional disconnection from purpose. Her parents, dedicated but disengaged from their jobs, instilled in her a desire to find meaning in work beyond just a paycheck. That formative experience shaped her ambition to live beyond the boundaries of her small hometown and seek a broader impact. Earning a Naval ROTC scholarship, she attended the University of San Diego and studied communication, laying the groundwork for a career that would eventually intersect military service, corporate leadership, and applied positive psychology.
Schulman entered the U.S. Marine Corps through the officer route, undergoing rigorous training that initially tested her physical and emotional endurance. One of only a few women in her training unit, she encountered skepticism early on, including a moment when a senior candidate told her she would not succeed. Struggling with the intense physical demands of the program, she considered quitting. Instead, she persevered, ultimately graduating as the top candidate in her officer school and earning the role of Midshipman Battalion Commander, responsible for leading 200 peers.
Her early military career included assignments as a combat engineer officer, a role newly opened to women at the time. She led specialized teams in mobility and counter-mobility operations, including constructing bridges, clearing mines, and supporting both defensive and offensive maneuvers. A formative experience in Alaska, where a subordinate corrected a potentially fatal mistake during demolition training, underscored for Schulman the value of humility and trust in leadership. “My Marines knew more than I did in certain areas,” she recalled. “If I just got out of their way and gave them the resources they needed, they could do their job better than anyone.”
Between 1996 and 2001, she served on active duty and departed shortly before the post-9/11 combat deployments began. Her decision to leave the Corps was shaped by a desire to prioritize family life after experiencing the challenges of prolonged deployment during her engagement. Transitioning into civilian life, Schulman joined Abbott Laboratories in the medical device and pharmaceutical sector, a field she initially resisted but came to embrace. Her career there spanned over a decade and culminated in a role focused on leadership development.
Despite her military background, Schulman said her most influential mentor was not a stereotypical drill instructor but a soft-spoken, empathetic officer who led by listening. This model of leadership deeply influenced her approach in corporate settings, where she initially struggled with translating military-style decisiveness into a context requiring greater flexibility and emotional intelligence. Over time, she embraced a more nuanced model of leadership that emphasized vision, empathy, and individualized support for team members.
Her experience led her to found her own consultancy and, later, to pursue a Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. There, she began to explore the scientific underpinnings of courage, resilience, and human flourishing. Inspired by the emerging research in the field, she developed a model of what she calls “the science of bravery,” which focuses on equipping individuals to act in alignment with their values, particularly in the face of fear or discomfort.
Schulman’s forthcoming book, The Bravery Effect, presents this framework through the lens of both research and narrative. Rather than focusing on dramatic or life-threatening heroism, the book considers bravery in everyday moments such as speaking up in meetings, initiating difficult conversations, or pursuing a personal goal despite uncertainty. Drawing on the PERMA model of well-being developed by psychologist Martin Seligman, Schulman argues that courage is a gateway to meaning, accomplishment, and engagement, which are core components of a flourishing life.
She differentiates between fear that serves a protective function and fear that inhibits growth. The bravery she promotes is not the absence of fear but deliberate action in its presence. Her model includes three pillars: mindset, action, and relationships. According to Schulman, bravery can be taught, practiced, and strengthened like a muscle, supported by both cognitive strategies and social networks. “Brave relationships,” she says, are those in which people offer encouragement and support rather than simply promoting comfort.
Now a regular speaker and educator, Schulman shares daily messages on social media platforms, combining evidence-based advice with personal anecdotes. She remains committed to grounding her work in psychological science and emphasizes that her goal is not personal recognition but to offer tools that help others build confidence and resilience. Her work challenges contemporary norms around comfort and ease, advocating instead for what she sees as a more sustainable and fulfilling model: confronting hard things and growing through them.
Schulman describes her mission as a response to what she views as a cultural overcorrection toward safety and ease. While acknowledging the importance of self-care, she argues that excessive avoidance of discomfort can undermine personal growth. Her message resonates with both corporate audiences and individuals seeking greater meaning in their lives. As she puts it, “The kindest thing we can do is not remove challenges for others, but help them rise to meet them.”
Her book The Bravery Effect is set to be released in August 2025.
Yitzi: Jill Schulman, it’s an honor to meet you. Before we dive in deep, our readers would love to learn about your personal origin story. Can you share the story of your childhood and how you grew up?
Jill: Sure. My life journey started in the Midwest, in Minnesota. I was born and raised in a little tiny town called Prior Lake, Minnesota, the same town my father has lived in his entire life. I grew up with those Midwestern values, that strong work ethic.
I think the other thing that influenced me about being there is I observed both my mom and my dad, great parents, working really hard, but they didn’t love or feel connected with the purpose of their work. They went to work to make a paycheck, but they wanted to work as little as possible. They were just doing it for the money.
In a good way, that influenced me. I wanted to do something that was more meaningful, that had more purpose. I think that’s one of the reasons why I decided to apply for a scholarship in the military, in the Marine Corps, to go to college and then become a United States Marine.
That’s kind of my beginning story. One of the motivators was wanting to live a life bigger than just Prior Lake. My dad loved living in that same small town. He still lives in the house I grew up in. I just wanted to spread my wings and make a bigger impact. The Marine Corps allowed me to do that.
Yitzi: Amazing. Please tell us the next chapter. Tell us the story of how you enlisted and your experience with the Marine Corps.
Jill: I went the officer route. Instead of enlisting, I was lucky enough to earn a scholarship. It’s very competitive, and I felt fortunate to have gotten it. When I was awarded the scholarship, a lot of colleges started recruiting me. The University of San Diego told me that if I used my scholarship, which covered books, fees, etc., they would pay for my room and board. When you grow up in Minnesota, San Diego sounds pretty amazing. So I ended up going to San Diego.
I was confident going in, but I had a rude awakening because I was so unprepared for the training to become a United States Marine. One funny story: I showed up in what I thought was the perfect outfit to make a good impression. It was the middle of summer, really hot, and I had to show up a week earlier than the University of San Diego orientation for what they called “orientation,” but it was basically a mini boot camp.
I wore these hot pink silk shorts with white polka dots, and a matching white shirt with a collar. I didn’t want to wear high heels, so I wore little pink pumps to match, and I had perfectly manicured nails. I thought I looked very professional. Then I reported to the NROTC unit, Marine Corps option. Everyone came in and they were like, “All the Marines go over there, all the people going to the Navy go over here.” I was one of only two females. And then the chaos began.
On that first day, one of the senior Marine officer candidates came up to me and said, “You’ll never make it as a Marine.”
So my journey didn’t start off great, and it got even harder from there. A big part of becoming a Marine is physical fitness. I thought I was physically fit. I had the academic record, leadership experience, and was active in sports. But running the hills of Southern California? I was not prepared.
In the Marine Corps, it’s very shameful not to perform well physically. I remember running in our Marine Corps formation up those hills and I just couldn’t keep up. It was so hard.
I share that because I think it leads to what I really care about now, how people can endure hardship and come out stronger on the other side. Those are some of the greatest moments in life. I could’ve gone back to Minnesota, back to that safe space with my loved ones, but I decided to stay and keep pushing forward.
The good news is, after three years of training, three long, painful years, I became very fast, very physically strong, and a strong leader. I came back from officer candidate school, which happens between your junior and senior year, and I actually finished as the top candidate in my school, ahead of all the male Marines.
They evaluate you on physical fitness, leadership, the whole package. I was then named the Midshipman Battalion Commander. We had about 200 people in our unit, and I was the one selected to lead it.
It’s a great story of what it means to endure and overcome. It’s not just about the fact that I finished at the top or was selected to command a unit. It’s about who you become on the journey. That experience really shaped me.
So yeah, that’s the next chapter. After college, I went on active duty. At that time, they were opening up the Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) of combat engineering, a combat arm, and I went into that MOS. Once again, I was one of the first females to lead in that unit, but I had an amazing experience. It was really challenging, but because it was hard and I succeeded, the reward was even sweeter.
What the Marine Corps did for me is it really increased my confidence and my belief that I could do anything I set my mind to. I’ll always treasure the lessons I learned there. I took those lessons into the next chapter of my life.
I was active duty from 1996 to 2001. I missed all the action, which I can look back on now and see how fortunate I was. I was commissioned right after Desert Storm ended. Then, when I got out and had my first job in Corporate America, 9/11 happened. So I just threaded the needle.
I’m one of the only Marines I know who doesn’t have combat service. But again, I feel fortunate that I didn’t have to endure that, because I know there’s so much trauma for people who did. Yeah, I missed it all.
Yitzi: Could you share one or two stories that most stand out in your mind from your military career.
Jill: I think one of the things I learned early in my Marine Corps career, and this ties into humility, which I know you’re a fan of, is that as a Marine Corps officer, you’re young. I was 23 when I became a platoon commander, and the Marines I led had more experience than I did, both in the Corps and in their technical expertise.
Especially as a combat engineer officer, my job was very broad. I was more strategically leading across different functions. We dealt with mobility and counter-mobility. That means, if we’re pursuing the enemy and encounter obstacles, we have to remove them, take out mines, build bridges, and make a path forward. In defensive positions, we do the opposite and create obstacles to slow down or stop the enemy.
I had all these Marines under me who were specialists. I had explosive ordnance disposal experts, sappers, our engineers who built things and blew things up, heavy equipment operators, bulk fuel storage, water purification teams. I had all these random specialists.
I had to be humble. There was no way I could walk in and act like I knew more than they did. That first job taught me that you have to provide the mission and the intent, and then you have to trust your people.
There’s one story, I haven’t shared this before on a podcast or anything, but I’m happy to. We were training up in Alaska on a joint operation. We were building a road for an Indian reservation. The terrain was similar to North Korea, and one of our jobs was to build a bridge.
While we were there, we also took some time to train with demolitions to keep our skills sharp. I’m not as good at it as my Marines, but I wanted to participate. In demolitions, you pick your explosive, C4, dynamite, or whatever you’re using, then you insert a blasting cap, which is a small device that causes the main explosive to detonate. You attach that to a detonation cord, which is like the stuff you see in cartoons that burns slowly, and then you measure how much time you need based on how long the cord is.
So, we were doing that. You always put the blasting cap on top of the det cord, and then you use a crimper to secure it. You crimp it lower down the cord, away from the cap. If you crimp too high, near the cap, it could explode in your face.
I was talking to my Marines while setting it up. I had the blasting cap in one hand, the det cord in the other, and I reached for the crimper. I was distracted and about to crimp it too high, too close to the cap. One of my corporals simply said, “Ma’am.” That’s all he said. But it pulled my focus back, and I adjusted it.
I think about that moment a lot. Thank goodness he felt comfortable enough to speak up. He probably saved my life. My Marines knew so much more than I did in certain areas, and if I just got out of their way and gave them the resources they needed, they could do their job better than anyone.
That’s one story. I’ve got a lot of great stories about times I was successful in the Marine Corps, but it’s moments like that which really stand out. I take those lessons with me even now, as I teach leaders and run my own company. I always emphasize the importance of honoring your team’s expertise. They’re closer to the problem. They see things I don’t. They have insights, they come up with solutions. I need them to speak up when something’s wrong.
That corporal probably saved my life. I never went back and talked to him about it. It was just this small moment of shared understanding. I don’t even know if anyone else noticed, but he remembers it and I remember it.
Yitzi: The Marines are probably the paradigm of a male-dominated environment. Do you have a story about what it takes to thrive as a woman in a male-dominated environment?
Jill: I get that question a lot, what was it like as a woman? And for me, and this is just my experience, I didn’t think about myself as a woman, and that was the key to my success. I thought about the job, what it required, and how I could become great at it.
In the Marine Corps, I focused on my competence, my confidence, and my physical ability because I knew those were the three things that would lead me to be a successful Marine Corps officer and earn respect. That’s what I focused on. Instead of thinking, “I’m a woman, how is this different?” I just thought, “I need to be effective.”
Maybe I’m not super popular for answering it that way, but I just tell people, stop thinking about being a woman, be effective. Be great at it. Bring the most value and be confident. I think that’s where a lot of women struggle. They just lack confidence.
Now my research is actually on the science of bravery. I teach people how to become braver and how to take steps forward in the presence of fear. I think that was my key to success. Because I did that, one of my proudest accomplishments in the Marine Corps was when I reported to my first battalion and became a platoon commander. They always chose one engineer platoon commander to lead a special operations capable engineer detachment that would deploy overseas.
I was selected as that one, competing against all male Marines. And it was because I didn’t focus on being a woman. I just said, “I’m going to be the best Marine. I’m going to be confident.” Of course, I had to work on my physical ability so I could earn respect, but I was really strong in that area too.
Yitzi: Why did you decide to leave the Marines?
Jill: I decided to leave the Marines because I was deployed for about a year of my year-and-a-half engagement to my husband. That was tough. This was not during the days of FaceTime or anything like that. It was the workup, the time I spent going out and training for weeks at a time, plus the full six-and-a-half or seven-month deployment.
I can’t remember exactly how long our float was. When we left on the ship, what we call a float, there’s always an amphibious ready group floating out in the Pacific and Atlantic theaters, always ready to respond within 24 to 48 hours.
For my Marines and me to get ready, we had all of these training workups, which meant deploying to places like 29 Palms and others, and then the deployment itself. What I realized was that I was getting married, and it’s really hard on marriages. It’s very hard when you’re deploying all the time.
I could see how hard it was. When I came back from deployment, I remember thinking, “Okay, I remember him being great, but I’d forgotten who he was.” I had to fall back in love. That experience scared me, and I thought, if I’m going to start a family and get married, this isn’t what I want. I wanted to prioritize family and marriage. So I chose to get out.
Yitzi: That’s a really beautiful story. Beautiful sentiment. Tell us the next chapter, what did you do after leaving the Marines?
Jill: I got out of the Marine Corps and thought I wanted to be a business consultant. I didn’t even know what that was, but there were a lot of recruiters who wanted to place me because they’d get paid if they did.
At the time, the recruiters who were placing junior officers were mostly putting them in the pharmaceutical industry. They said there was a lot of opportunity, but I was a little full of myself. I thought, “I’m a captain of Marines. I’m not a salesperson. What is this medical stuff?”
They understood, but encouraged me to at least practice my interviewing skills. So they talked me into interviewing with a couple of companies just for practice. The second company I interviewed with had a hiring manager who was a former Marine Corps officer. The rest is history.
I actually stopped the interview and said, “You sell me on why I should do this.” We had a great conversation, and that began my 13-year career at my first corporation.
I fell in love with science. I had a business and communications degree, so I didn’t know anything about science or the medical world, but I loved learning. I loved having conversations with doctors. I wasn’t even sure I could do it. I thought, “Can I be successful in the civilian world? How would I talk to a doctor? They’re so smart.” It was intimidating.
But I had the best manager, the one who hired me, who showed me the ropes. I absolutely fell in love with the work. I stayed at that company for 13 years, moved up, and did really well. My last job there was in leadership development, which I really loved. Even though I had a lot of leadership experience, when they promoted me to leader pretty quickly, I made a lot of mistakes. There were so many opportunities to improve.
They gave us a lot of training and workshops to help us grow as leaders, and I soaked it all up. I took everything I learned, applied it, and became more successful.
I was so enamored with the value of that training, especially because I thought I already knew how to be the perfect leader as a Marine, but I realized there was so much more to learn.
My last job at Abbott Labs, which later became AbbVie, led me to start my own leadership development company.
Yitzi: Can you recall an example of how you use the leadership lessons from your military experience in your career?
Jill: One of the best leaders I ever had in the Marine Corps was Captain Wayne Sinclair at the time. He became a full bird Colonel later on, but he was Captain Sinclair to me. He was my first boss when I was a platoon commander. And he wasn’t what you’d imagine as a typical great Marine Corps leader. If you think of a Marine Corps leader, what image comes to mind?
Yitzi: First thing I think of is Full Metal Jacket.
Jill: Exactly. All the yelling and intensity. But Wayne Sinclair was soft-spoken, a great listener, very caring, empathetic. That’s what stood out to me as great leadership, because I think that’s where we get confused. We tend to think great leadership is about barking orders all the time. But my best leader in the Marine Corps wasn’t the one doing that. He was calm, cool, collected, and a great listener. He absolutely held us to high standards, of course he did. But I think that’s the lesson I took with me: great leadership isn’t always what people expect, even in the Marine Corps.
There’s a place for drill sergeants, and that’s boot camp. That’s when we’re trying to break people down and build them back up. But the best leaders in the Marine Corps are the ones who listen well. What I learned from that was, wow, my natural tendency is to talk and give direction, because I’m extroverted and driven. I realized I needed to dial that back and be more like Wayne Sinclair.
And it goes back to what you were saying — humility. Be a good listener. Genuinely care about the person. I always think, “What would Captain Sinclair do in this moment?” And it’s such a helpful guide for me. Whenever I imagined what he would do, it usually led me down the right path.
So that’s one thing I learned in the Marine Corps. And I think my natural tendencies led me to make a lot of mistakes as a new leader in the pharmaceutical industry. I was really successful right out of the gate. My joke is, I started by blowing things up for a living, and then I started selling drugs — the legal kind.
But I was very successful when I first got into pharmaceutical sales. I was the top performer in the entire country. I was killing it. So they promoted me very quickly to a leadership role. The mistake I made early on was wanting everyone to do things exactly the way I did. I wanted to create little mini Jills.
One of the things I did to be successful was working Friday nights and then either Saturday or Sunday. I was selling antibiotics, and sick people tend to go to urgent cares or ERs on weekends or Friday nights. So I’d work those extra hours. And what do you think I told my team to do? That was my big mistake. Barking orders and telling them to do it like me wasn’t the right way to lead.
Even though I had observed great leadership from Colonel Sinclair, I definitely made mistakes. People didn’t appreciate being told what to do. They were like, “Who do you think you are? You can’t just order me to work on weekends.” But I had some great mentors and took some excellent leadership classes. They reminded me of what I saw in Wayne Sinclair.
Leadership is about having a vision for success, figuring out how to best serve your customers and patients, then believing in your people and being empathetic, helping them achieve those goals. It took me a while to learn those lessons, but I think I learned them through observation. I made mistakes early in my career, but I think that’s why it resonates with me so much. When you see leadership at work and then later learn about it academically, it really sinks in. I finally learned that lesson.
Yitzi: Jill, are you working on any exciting projects now?
Jill: I am. And I hope this is the most interesting thing you can write about, because it’s what I’m most interested in. I always feel like my past history isn’t that exciting, but the stuff I’m doing right now really is. I told you before, I love to learn. Just like I learned about you, you love learning, you’re always learning and growing. I’m the same way.
After I had my company for about the first eight or nine years, I was doing great work in leadership development, which I’ve done for a long time. But I was always trying to learn and grow, so I was reading everything I could. And I stumbled upon the science of happiness and well-being.
There is such a thing. It’s called the field of positive psychology. I came across it through a gentleman named Shawn Achor. He actually just wrote a blurb for my book. He was talking about the happiness equation and how happiness helps you accomplish hard things. But it’s not that you become happy once you accomplish something. You actually need to experience positive emotions first. That idea blew my mind. I thought, wow, this is what we need more of in the business world.
Long story short, I went back to school and studied positive psychology at Penn. I did a deep dive into research, and I think what we need, for our kids and even in the workplace, is to shift our approach.
Right now, there’s a big emphasis on helping people be successful by making things easier: setting easier goals, encouraging more self-care days, removing obstacles. The intent behind it is good, help people be more successful and happier. But you’re nodding your head because you probably know the real impact. People become weaker and less happy. Their self-confidence and self-efficacy drop. So in trying to make people more successful and happier, we’re actually making them less successful, weaker, and unhappier.
The world has emphasized making things easier, probably because things were too stressful before. It came from a good place, but we’ve gone too far. I’ve seen this with my clients and heard it from my kids. They see all this content on TikTok and social media and just want an easy, smooth path. They don’t want challenges or adversity.
This thread runs through my whole life, even back to the Marine Corps. And there’s a lot of scientific evidence to back this up. Instead of helping people by taking away challenges and adversity, the kindest thing we can do is help them rise up and achieve those challenges themselves.
That’s what I’m calling the science of bravery. Fear often holds people back from trying something, finishing something, or even starting something they really want to do. They don’t feel ready or confident. They’re afraid of failing. This fear stops people from pursuing things that align with their values or intrinsic motivations. The science of bravery asks: how do we overcome that fear to live our best lives?
When you overcome fear, it transforms you. I remember being a young Marine thinking, “I don’t know if I can do this.” But when I did it, it wasn’t about earning the title of Marine. It was about who I became in the process. That’s what I’m focused on now. I want to teach people not to say, “I’m just not ready and I’m scared, so I’ll stay small.” I want to say, “No, let me show you how strong you are.”
That’s what the science of bravery is all about. Bravery isn’t about being fearless. It’s about taking steps forward in the presence of fear. And it’s exhilarating when you do that. In the moment, it can feel miserable. Running the hills of Southern California for three years was not fun. But the choice is either to stay safe and cower, and the definition of “cower” is to retreat in the face of a challenge or fear, or to step forward courageously.
There’s so much evidence that we can teach people how to be brave. Some people think, “I’m just not brave.” But there’s scientific evidence that anyone can become brave if they develop a brave mindset. It starts with the beliefs in our head, then it takes brave actions, and finally brave relationships. The combination of those three things can make anyone brave.
I’ll give an example from my Marine Corps days. At some of my lowest points, when I was trying to become a Marine, there was a gentleman at the university. He was the assistant Marine officer instructor, Staff Sergeant Curtis Anderson. I still remember him very well. There were times when I thought, “I don’t know if I can ever do this.” And what he would do is what I now call brave relationships, people who encourage you. Encourage literally means “to give courage.” He would say, “You’re learning. You’ll get there. Just keep at it.” Those little words of encouragement were exactly what I needed.
Sometimes, people in our lives don’t give us courage. They encourage us to be comfortable and quit. They say, “Why are you doing all that hard stuff? Just do something easier.” A brave mindset is believing that, even though something is really hard, you can do it with strong work and ethic. I cite a lot of scientific research on this, based on growth mindset and stress-is-enhancing mindset.
Stressful things aren’t bad for you. They’re actually good for you. You just have to believe that. I do a lot of work on the cognitive side, helping people believe they should try to do hard things. It won’t be easy, but they can achieve it with strong work and ethic.
Then there’s brave action. Some people want to do hard things, they’re dreamers. They set goals, make vision boards, but never take the first step. So we talk about strategies to take that first step. I teach people that if you’re waiting until you feel ready, it’s not going to happen.
We teach that motivation and confidence are overrated. Don’t wait until you feel motivated. I didn’t feel motivated to run hills in Southern California. I did it because it was the hard thing that would help me reach my goal. We teach people to identify the hard thing, not hesitate, and to run toward what they’re scared of instead of away from it.
Now, there are two types of fear. Some fear is good, like when you see a dark alley at 2 a.m. in a bad part of Chicago. That fear keeps you safe. But there’s also fear like, “I don’t know if I can do this. I might fail.” That’s the fear you want to run toward.
When you’re doing that, those brave relationships, people who’ve done it before, will support and encourage you to keep going. That’s what I mean by kindness. I really want to help correct the narrative. The kindest thing we can do is encourage people to try to accomplish hard things. Encourage them on the journey and say, “You can do it,” instead of just taking challenges away.
Because we’re being too soft. People are getting soft and fragile, and it’s no wonder we have such high levels of anxiety and depression. It’s because we keep making things too easy. That’s what I’m on a mission to change. That’s what my research and my book, The Bravery Effect, are all about.
It comes out August 26. The reason it’s called The Bravery Effect is because I want to be clear, I’m not talking about running into burning buildings. When I talk about bravery as a Marine, people assume that. I’m talking about the little moments.
The moments when you have an idea and want to speak up at work, but you stay quiet because you’re scared. Or a few days later, you avoid a difficult conversation because it’s uncomfortable. Or you want to volunteer to lead a project, but think, “I’m not ready. I’m not confident.”
All those micro-decisions, to cower instead of be courageous, have a profound impact over time. It’s like saving for retirement. It’s a compounding effect. That compounding fear can be devastating.
But the good news is, if you learn to take small, courageous steps in those little moments, your bravery builds over time. Your brain actually rewires. Both your prefrontal cortex and your ACC will rewire and strengthen. Bravery is like a muscle. You keep working it out, and it gets stronger. It gets easier over time. And then people live their best lives. They avoid a life of regret.
I just feel like this is really needed. So thank you for interviewing me and for sharing this. I need help getting this message out to the world. I hope it resonates with your readers. I think we need a healthy dose of doing hard things, coming from a United States Marine.
Yitzi: To play devil’s advocate, you said that you think if we were to embrace more bravery, we’d be happier. So someone could argue, that you have many military heroes who run into the firing line, and they aren’t necessarily the happiest people. The people who do the bravest things aren’t always the happiest. It looks like other people might actually be happier. How can we explain that?
Jill: Great question. What we need to do is look at the full body of evidence on happiness and well-being. Let me answer that for you.
What we know with scientific certainty is that there are really five major things that lead to happiness and well-being. And you want to have a balance. If you want to be the happiest person, you want to have all five of the elements, or at least four of them. Let me go over those, because bravery is going to help in some of the areas but not all of them.
This comes from Marty Seligman, the father of positive psychology. This is his research that he published about 20 years ago. The acronym is PERMA. So, in order for us to be happy, the first element, P, stands for positive emotions. We need to experience positive emotions.
Some people think happiness is just smiling all the time, but happiness, when we define it in positive psychology, is more about well-being or flourishing. Someone might be smiling all the time, but inside they’re not really happy. So positive emotions are one-fifth of the equation.
E is engagement. That’s all the work by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi on flow, finding things where you lose track of time because you enjoy doing them and you’re growing in that area. That’s the second one.
The third is relationships, which, out of all the elements, has the highest impact on overall happiness and well-being. It’s about the quality of your relationships, the people you love and who are in your life.
The M in PERMA is meaning. Are you doing things where you feel your life has purpose? Where you feel like what you do matters?
And finally, the A is accomplishment, achieving things that are intrinsically important to you.
So, where does bravery fit in here? There are a lot of military people and cops I know, because I have a lot of friends in those groups, and they’re very brave on the outside, but very unhappy on the inside. In fact, we have an epidemic. Many are taking their own lives. Some of them I studied with at Penn.
They might be brave on the outside, but bravery isn’t just running into a burning building or making an arrest or chasing a bad guy. There’s so much more to it. The bravery I speak about is about accomplishing things that are intrinsically important to you. It’s about setting that goal and going after it.
In my model, which includes mindset, actions, and relationships, you actually hit on all of the PERMA elements. If you go through my program, or even just follow what I’ve put out there (a lot of it is free on my website), one part of mindset is generating positive emotions on the journey. That’s part of bravery.
Engagement comes in when you set goals that challenge you, where hopefully you’ll be in flow. Brave relationships, that’s relationships right there.
As I teach bravery, it’s not about bravado. This is the bravery to really look deep inside and ask, “What do I really want that’s challenging?” Maybe it’s starting your own business because you’ve always wanted to. Or maybe it’s quitting your job and working for a nonprofit. For me, it was getting out of the Marine Corps and transitioning into the civilian world.
And the last thing I want to mention, especially since you brought up military people or first responders, is that a big part of bravery is being vulnerable. When you’re trying to do hard things, you’re going to struggle. The journey to success isn’t linear. There are ups and downs. In fact, if it’s a smooth road, it’s probably not hard enough. You should have picked something more challenging.
So there are going to be ups and downs, and bravery is about admitting when you’re stuck, or frustrated, or need help, and asking for it. That’s part of brave relationships. Who can I call and say, “I need help”?
We need a lot more of that, especially from people we think of as brave on the outside. Often, they’re weak, or even cowardly, when it comes to being honest about what they need.
Yitzi: It seems like you’re really reframing bravery. We often define bravery in terms of life-or-death or extreme situations, but you’re saying it’s really in the everyday moments. It sounds like you’re talking about the conflict between your id and your superego, between your animal nature and your conscience. And when you choose to follow your conscience, your superego, instead of your id, that’s bravery. Because the easiest thing is just to listen to the id. It’s inertia. But when we choose to listen to our superego, something that happens thousands of times a day in these micro decisions, that’s what ultimately makes us feel happier. So really, what you’re doing is presenting a framework for bravery that’s about making choices aligned with your conscience.
Jill: You got it. That’s exactly what it is. And when you say that, think of bravery as a large spectrum. I don’t want to discount those extreme moments of bravery. When people want to run away but, if they’re defending their country, their conscience tells them to run toward the danger. Those are beautiful examples of bravery at its most extreme. But if we only think of those moments as bravery, we miss out on the entire spectrum. You’re right, there are also little moments. Maybe someone keeps getting cut off in a meeting, and your inner conscience says, “This isn’t right.” You say, “Sue, please go ahead.” It can be those little moments, and you’re absolutely right. It’s about knowing what’s right for you, for the world, or for other people, and choosing to do the hard thing, the uncomfortable or scary thing.
You actually helped me find a really simple way to explain that, so thank you for that. That’s essentially what it is. And what we’re talking about now is really wisdom, living according to our values. This is the difference between hedonic pleasure and what’s called eudaimonic pleasure. We’re talking about both of those. Hedonic pleasures are things that just feel good. But eudaimonic pleasure is that feeling of, “I did the right thing.” Maybe you did hard things all day, but at the end of the day, you feel great because you’re proud of your actions. So, you nailed it.
Yitzi: That’s great. So in that sense, this fits into the M. This is part of meaning.
Jill: This is meaning. And in the world of positive psychology too, and a lot of people agree with this, A is almost like the scarlet letter in positive psychology. There are so many people doing research and talking about positive emotion, flow, relationships, and meaning. But sometimes A is like, oh, we don’t talk about accomplishment. No, no, no. That sounds very self-serving. But we know that accomplishment matters. I want people to wear that A with pride and say, I have goals and I want to accomplish things, but it’s something that’s meaningful to me. And when I do it, I’m going to be in flow, engaged, and I’m going to leverage relationships along the way. Then I’m going to feel great and generate that positive emotion. Bravery kind of unlocks the keys to leveraging all the elements as we accomplish things. I’m trying to bring the A back.
Yitzi: Because of the platform you’ve built and your great work, you’re a person of enormous influence. If you could spread an idea or inspire a movement that would bring the most good to the most people, what would that be?
Jill: I think it’s everything I’ve been trying to say, but the message I want to get out there is… I want, okay, I’m not going to say it concisely. I want people to try to accomplish hard things, and that’s going to make them happier. Instead of always choosing the easy path. I think of the Hercules story. You’re at a crossroads, do I go down the challenging path that’s going to have adversity and all that, but lead to a virtuous life? Or do I choose the path that’s easy, where I get everything? I think we often face those choices. I want people to choose the hard path, knowing it’s going to lead to a much deeper life of meaning and overall happiness and well-being.
And if I can add to that, I think we all have a responsibility. We should be doing this for ourselves, but also, if anyone has kids or if you’re a leader in an organization, this is probably the message. You are trying so hard because you care so much about your employees, your kids, or your loved ones that you just want to make everything better. So when there is a struggle, you go in and take it away to make them happy. But you’re having the opposite impact.
Instead of going in there and saying, let me do it for you or let me take away the stress and adversity, I want you to do the kindest thing ever, help them rise up and realize they can overcome it. Help your employees when they’re struggling with something, but make sure they’re the ones who overcome it, and be there to encourage them. Same thing with parents.
And I think I’ve screwed that up as a parent. I’ve sometimes been the snowplow parent, going, oh my gosh, my kid’s struggling, they have anxiety and all that. I just want to go into school and take all that away. I’ve done it, and I’m not happy about it. I’m trying to correct it now.
So, if I, as a United States Marine, have heard all these messages we see in the media, and it’s impacted me to try to take all the hardship away, I can only imagine how it is for everyone else. Now that I really understand the science of it, I know, and I use this word “kind” very intentionally, being kind is different from just being nice. “Nice” is about avoiding discomfort. “Kind” is about doing what truly helps.
Do the kind thing. They’re going to be stronger, more resilient as a result. So, that’s the message.
Yitzi: How can our readers continue to follow your work? How could they purchase your book? How could they listen to your talks? How could they support you in any possible way?
Jill: I don’t want your listeners to support me. I want to support them. But the way I can help is, I poured my heart and soul into a book that’s written as a parable. I believe in the power of stories to teach lessons that stick with us. It’s written as an entertaining two-hour story and it’s called The Bravery Effect.
For all my early readers who gave feedback, they said it made a profound impact on them. The book comes out on August 26.
In addition, what really helps me is getting a little motivational dose every day. You shared on another podcast that you spend a little time every morning doing that, and it helps set your day. I do the same. I have a little practice myself. I don’t read scripture, but I read philosophy every morning, and that gets me motivated.
For all my followers, across every platform, whether it’s LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram, I share daily messages meant to encourage people to choose bravery each day. And everything I share isn’t just my opinion, it’s based on positive psychology.
I believe we all have a responsibility: if I’m going to give advice, it should be based on evidence. I take that seriously. I’m not putting things out there for fame. It’s not self-serving. It’s about telling stories and giving evidence-based tips that help people every day.
We all need those little reminders. If you hear one each morning, it can help you make better decisions throughout the day, and that creates a positive compounding effect.
My website is just jillshoman.com. People can take a free bravery assessment there. It’s currently down while we make a few tweaks, but it’ll be back up in a couple of weeks.
If someone thinks, “Oh, I’m really brave,” like you mentioned about the military person or first responder, have them take the bravery assessment. They’ll be brave in some areas, but probably not in others. We all have opportunities to strengthen our bravery.
Yitzi: It seems like it’s easier to be brave in areas where people will applaud you and see it. But it’s in the quiet moments, when no one’s watching, that it’s much harder to be brave.
Jill: Yeah. And those quiet moments are the ones that have the biggest impact on you and your journey, when no one’s looking. Because at the end of the day, you know if you did the right thing when no one was watching.
Can I ask you one question? What is one of the accomplishments in your life that you’re most proud of, that required bravery or had a challenging path to get there?
Yitzi: I don’t know if this is what you had in mind, but this is what comes to my mind. I’ve been married for almost 25 years, will be 25 in February. I think it’s the moments in my relationship when there was an opportunity to argue or say something, and I chose not to. That felt very brave to me.
Jill: That’s amazing. Now, have you always been that way, or did you learn it over time?
Yitzi: No, I definitely wasn’t always that way. I think I just learned that, like you say, you can win a battle and lose a war.
Jill: That’s so true. I love it. The reason I ask that is, sometimes when I talk to people, I’ll ask them a similar question — maybe I frame it a bit differently. I’ll say, what’s your proudest accomplishment that involved a journey requiring bravery and had its ups and downs? Usually, people think of a moment they’re really proud of.
Like for me, it might be the Marine Corps. Then I ask, were there a lot of ups and downs? Did it require bravery? And they reflect and say, yeah. It’s hard to be brave for things in the future, but when people look back, they realize, I want to do hard things. Because I went through so much adversity to accomplish this, and I’m a better person for it. I’m so glad I went through that.
Sometimes I have people reflect on moments when they had to go through something hard. That process made them who they are, and it can motivate them to be brave moving forward.
Well, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. I feel like I’m talking to a kindred spirit. I really believe in abundance. I never feel threatened. I want to help everyone amplify their voice.
I think about it like religion. We don’t want just one rabbi, one pastor, or one priest. We need many of them preaching the same message consistently for people to truly understand and be positively impacted.
So, thank you for amplifying my voice. I want to amplify yours. We need as many people as possible encouraging others to live a life according to their conscience. And you know the impact of that.
I’ve never been more excited about the impact I want to have in the world, which is sharing my research on the science of bravery and how it can really help people, not just to be more successful, but to elevate their happiness and overall well-being in life.
I feel like it’s so needed. So many people today are focused on comfort, on removing obstacles, and making life easy, because we think that leads to happiness. But that’s just not what the science supports.
I really want to get the message out about what truly leads to the highest levels of happiness and well-being. It’s not choosing the easy path. It’s choosing the challenging path that shapes who you become.
Thank you for these great insights!
Author Jill Schulman on Marine Corps Lessons, Positive Psychology, and Why Bravery, Not Comfort… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.